Discussion Topics***

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Christianized Readings in the Protestant OT vs. the Tanakh*** <- Click link for full post.

• Isaiah 7:14 — “almah” vs. “parthenos”
• Hosea 11:1 — “Out of Egypt I called my son”
• Micah 5:2 — “goings forth from of old, from ancient days” is read by Christian tradition as implying the pre-existence/divinity of the Messiah; in context it more plausibly refers to the ancient Davidic lineage promised to Bethlehem, per the JPS-tradition rendering “one whose origin is from of old, from ancient times” as dynastic pedigree rather than metaphysical pre-existence. Jews for Jesus

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Atonement or Forgiveness? Bart’s comment about Luke-Acts

The doctrine of atonement does not hinge on what the author of Luke Acts thought. If you are a Christian and you’re interested in what the Bible says, it is interesting to find that Luke-Acts does not think that God requires an atonement. Luke-Acts thinks God will forgive you without any payment being made. That’s a different theology. And once you recognize it’s a different theology based on textual variance, among other things, then you have a choice. Which of these theologies do you think is more suitable? One where God requires a human sacrifice or one where he forgives you like a loving father? Two different views.

Forgiveness vs Atonement [Paul] didn’t invent the idea [of atonement] but this is why the early 20th-century scholars were saying the religion of Jesus is forgiveness and the religion about Jesus is atonement.

Does Lukan Acts know Paul Wrote Letters? No.

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The Political and Economic Situation for Jesus as a late teenager to young adult.

In 20 CE, Herod Antipas moved the capital of Galilee from Sepphoris to his new city, Tiberias, on the Sea of Galilee, which he renamed the Sea of Tiberias. Construction in Sepphoris would have been nil and a lot of work for tektons would have appeared in Tiberias. If Semona, wife of Zebeedee, was Mary’s sister and James and John, her sons, were Jesus’ cousins, then moving there would have been easier. Related links are:

1. Post about John Dominic Crossan’s belief that the family fishing industry was turned into a state industry to ship salted fish (garum) to Rome to make Herod Agripa famous and the emperor make him King as his father was.
2. Page about Sepphoris.
3. Jesus’ Move to Capernaum – Includes a good explanation of scholars’ thoughts about why the family moved.

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Which of the six Eschatological (end times) Scenarios do you believe is correct? 

A: See https://theway.davisinterests.com/wp/eschatological-scenarios/​. My interest and the list evolved from a very interesting post at BSA about a detail in 2 Thessalonians written in Paul’s name. Who holds back the Man of Lawlessness?​  A:  “the katechon [My phonetic spelling: kahh’-tee-con] literally means something like “That which restrains” or “He who holds something back”, used in 2 Thessalonians 2 to describe an entity of some sort that restrains the Man of Lawlessness (whoever that is), delaying the End Times. It’s vague, it’s dramatic, it’s memorable… and people have been debating what it means for a very long time.

1. 1 Thessalonians 4-5 – “Thief in the Night”; i.e., no signs.
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 – Three signs first. Presents an eschatological scenario involving a “restraining” force/person (the katechon/to katechon) and “the man of lawlessness” (ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας) who must be revealed before the parousia. 
3. Mark 13 / the Synoptic Apocalypse – MANY signs: wars, earthquakes, famines, persecution, the “abomination of desolation” (echoing Daniel), false messiahs/prophets, then sun darkens, stars falling… 
4. Matthew 24-25 – Expands Mark’s apocalypse and adds parables (faithful/unfaithful servants, ten virgins, talents, sheep and goats) emphasizing moral readiness and final judgment based on works/mercy
5. Johannine literature – Largely “realized” eschatology: judgment and eternal life are present realities tied to belief now
6. Revelation – Highly symbolic: seals, trumpets, bowls of judgment; a great Beast from the sea and a second beast; Babylon (Rome) falls; a millennial reign of Christ and the martyrs; final battle (Armageddon)

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Jesus and the Bible were shaped by… C.J. Cornthwaite – From his SubStack here.

…centuries of Trinitarian thought by people I’d never heard of gave me my simple understanding of one God in three persons. As a youth pastor, I’d tell kids Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. I had no idea where that came from. It was the Council of Chalcedon in 451.

The Bible I thought spoke to me was formed over centuries of church decisions, heresy hunting, and careful editing and redacting. It was ironic that I thought I’d made a choice that exempted me from religion.

Really, my Jesus was created for me by Roman Popes and Bishops, by German Reformers, and by Anglican academics.

When I see a Christian who thinks they have the true Jesus over and against those other heretics in other churches, I see someone who is swimming in an ocean of history and doesn’t know they’re wet. The only way we know Jesus is through religion. We learn of Jesus of the Gospels, and it’s a Jesus that was shaped by Graeco-Roman biographical norms.

The irony of the whole thing is this. We actually have no idea who the historical Jesus was or what he thought. Jesus is only mediated to us by the Christian religion. We’re formed in it. Taught to speak Christian…

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Beliefs and Theology
By Steve Hunsaker – Nov 6, 2025, posted at BSA.

On my account, the story of Jesus is true – but it did not happen as it has been told and it doesn’t need to have happened. The story demands us to live in the same manner as the Jesus in the story, in a sense.

The message I have embodied is – go be a comforter, go be a savior, go be a redeemer, go be a christ, go be a [insert a name for Jesus here] to others!

My theology does not entertain ideas like: [bullet formatting is mine]

• original sin;
• the immaculate conception – the mother of Jesus could not have been stained by original sin;
• the virgin birth – Jesus could not have been born by a woman tainted by original sin;
• Jesus had to die because of Adam & Eve; etc.

I don’t believe I was born evil, born to be rescued, born to be saved. I believe I was born to bring my own light into the world. We can all be the light of the world. We can all be the bread of life. We can all bring heaven to earth.

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Did Jesus have a lord complex manifested in his demands that disciples abandon their families to poverty to follow him, and forsake everything worldly for him. Well, to modern minds that of course raises a red flag with the word cult emblazoned on it in all caps.- Charles Bledsoe

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Who did Jesus say he is? Click here for all five passages that refute the alleged seven “I am” statements in John. Two are as follows:

• John 10:29 — “My Father is greater than all.” This is the verse before “I and the Father are one,” directly undercutting the charge that Jesus claimed equality.
• John 14:28 — “the Father is greater than I.” Ross calls this one of the clearest statements in John: Jesus himself says the Father surpasses him, making any claim of full equality impossible.
• Ephesians 1:17 (A Paul follower)— “…the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory…” Ross draws attention to “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” — Jesus has a God; he is not God.

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The Bible is an Anthology of books and letters written by different people at different times in different locations. – Joshua Schachterle, Ph.D

• Mark – When written and by whom? by Joshua Schachterle, Ph.D
  • Not by John Mark due to 1) lack of knowledge of geography and 2) was unacquainted with Jewish customs (unlikely for someone from Palestine). See page at this site here.
  • likely written between 70 CE — when the temple was destroyed — and 74 CE — when the war ended
  • Scholars agree it was originally written anonymously by a Greek-speaking gentile living outside Palestine, perhaps in Rome.
• Matthew – The Gospel of Matthew, on the other hand, is written in highly literate Greek.   It’s not the greatest Greek from antiquity.  But it’s good, readable Greek, written by a highly educated Christian in a later generation (usually dated to around 80-85 CE, so presumably a good number of years after an adult in the 20s CE (as Matthew would have been) would have died), almost certainly from outside of Palestine. [Dr. Bart Ehrman]
• Luke/Acts – See Bart Ehrman’s 2025 posts on who wrote Luke and Acts and when. See also the post on this site about the long list of scholars who believe Acts is an early 2nd-century work. As the author does not know Paul he would not have been a traveling companion. For Paul, it was an absolute and total affront for Gentiles to follow the Law, a complete violation of his gospel message. Would a companion of Paul really not understand such a crucial feature of the apostle’s views, one that stood at the very core of his Gospel message? From Acts.
  • Luke – 80-85. After Mark and before the Didache (~100CE)
  • Acts – Bart says 80s. Josephus scholar Steve Mason and Acts scholar Richard Pervo argued that the author of Acts knew the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, that some portions of Acts show dependence on Josephus’s Antiquities of the Jews, produced in 93 CE.  They have suggested a later date of up to 120 CE for Acts.
• John – See the page at this site here. Various objections to John the Apostle’s (son of Zebedee) authorship have been raised:
  • John was a fisherman from Galilee, and Acts 4:13 refers to John as “without learning” or “unlettered”.
  • The author seems to have had advanced knowledge of Judean topography, so likely came from there; on the other hand, John the Apostle came from Galilee.^[48]
  • The Fourth Gospel is a highly intellectual account of Jesus’ life and is familiar with Rabbinic traditions of biblical interpretation.

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Baptism and John the Baptist

• “Jesus the Baptizer” – First, according to the unique tradition preserved in the gospel of John, we could properly speak of “Jesus the Baptizer” in parallel with the better known designation of “John the Baptizer.” Notice: “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized (John 3:22).“ [from Tabor here]. See Young’s Literal Translation here.
• John/Jesus’ baptism was for repentance.
• Paul’s baptism
  • Union with Christ’s Death and Resurrection: In Romans 6:3-4, he elucidates that through baptism, believers are united with Christ in His death, and just as Christ was raised from the dead, they too walk in newness of life.
  • Galatians 3:26–27 (NRSV): 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
  • Acts 19:1-7—And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland^[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. ² And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” ³ And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” ⁴ And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” ⁵ On hearing this, they were baptized in^[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. ⁶ And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. ⁷ There were about twelve men in all.

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Jesus warned about “false messiahs and false prophets” when asked about the end times in the Olivet Discourse. Perhaps John of Patmos and Revelation is what he meant.

Matthew 24:23-28 – Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

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Is Christianity the same religion as what Jesus taught?

Two paragraphs from here – i.e. Bart Ehrman’s Session 3, at about 35 min.
Jesus, by the Council of Nicaea, ended up being God; not a subordinate god but God from eternity past.

• Christ had always existed as God and was equal in glory with God the Father. This is well beyond what you find in the New Testament and it’s affirmations of who Christ is, and it is so far beyond anything that came out in the teachings of the historical Jesus that you just wonder is this the same religion.
• Is it the same religion?
  • Jesus was preaching that there’s going to be a judgment of God soon when God intervenes to destroy the forces of evil and set up a good Kingdom on earth. That was Jesus teaching. Jesus might have thought that he was going to be the king of this new Kingdom.
  • The teaching about Jesus is that he was God, equal with God the Father for eternity past, not just billions and billions of years ago, all the way back. There never was a time when he didn’t exist with God as an equal.  That is so different [from what Jesus taught].

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How to have eternal life?

• Jesus says in Matt 19:16-22, in the parable of the rich man, to obey the laws.
• Paul says in Gal 2:16 and 21 that will not work.

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When was Jesus Exalted?

1. First, Paul wrote that Jesus was exalted to a deity at the resurrection, Romans 1:3-4;
2. Then Matthew believed Jesus to be exalted to a deity at Baptism. See Matthew with God saying at the baptism, “Today I have begotten you”; i.e. Adoptionist Theology.
3. In addition, Matthew and Luke present Jesus as being exalted to a deity at Birth. See Matthew and Luke’s miraculous virgin birth.
4. Then Jesus was exalted to a diety for all time; as cited in John’s prologue, i.e. Incarnation Theology.

Also see post on this site here.

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Just for the record, Jesus did not:

• Start the Christian religion.
• See human beings as “sinners” by nature.
• Die to rescue people from God’s wrath.
• Establish a professional clergy class.
• Create a theological orthodoxy.
• Write, authorize, or even read the New Testament.
• Teach that women were subordinate to men.
• Require people to worship him.
• Say humanity is fundamentally separate from God.
• Teach that heaven is merely a destination after death.
• Claim exclusive ownership of God.
• Encourage institutional religion.
• Describe hell as a place of eternal conscious torment.
• Claim superiority over every other human being.

From Jim Palmer here.

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Memories

Go to the page on this site for Bart’s views with the most important being Gist Memories; IMHO.

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Sacrifices – See page here.

• 1 Samuel 15:22 NRSV “22 And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Surely, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.”
• THE SCRIBE in Mark 12:33 NRSV – “32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.“
• Micah 6:6-8 – The people respond with hat in hand pleading — “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of olive oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” Micah, the prosecuting attorney speaks. “He has shown you, mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” Those are the three things Yahweh requires of them. There are four things he was offered but did not want.  Look at those four. The first and last are both sacrifices.

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Paul

• There is far more info about Paul in the Roman Bible than about Jesus. The following sub-bullets are from Claude.ai.
  • The premise resting behind this statement is a real point critical scholars make, though it’s usually framed as “we know more about Paul as a historical figure than we know about Jesus,” not “there’s more information about Paul than Jesus” full stop; the Gospels obviously discuss Jesus at greater length. The distinction scholars are drawing is about source quality, not word count.
  • This isn’t a claim that Paul is more important or more documented in sheer volume — the Gospels are far longer than Paul’s letters and are entirely about Jesus. The scholarly point is narrower and more precise: Paul is a historically self-attesting author, and Jesus is not. We know Paul’s own account of his conversion, his theology, his quarrels with Peter (Gal. 2:11–14), and his travel plans in his own words. We know Jesus only through the filtered, redacted, decades-later memory of communities writing about him — which is why historical Jesus research is a far more contested and methodologically fraught enterprise than Pauline studies.
• If Paul had not had issues in the churches he founded and had not written letters admonishing them, then how would Christianity be different? Would there be Christianity as we know it?
• If Paul’s theology had not been choosen by the Roman church fathers how would Christianity be different?
• Paul Cites Only Two Teachings of Jesus
  • that preachers should be paid and
  • do not get divorced. See the post here for more info.
• Paul’s seven letters (from here) considered genuine by most scholars, are:
  • Galatians (c. 48 AD)
  • 1 Thessalonians (c. 49–51)
  • 1 Corinthians (c. 53–54)
  • 2 Corinthians (c. 55–56)
  • Romans (c. 55–57)
  • Philippians (c. 57–59 or c. 62)
  • Philemon (c. 57–59 or c. 62)
• Paul had a very high view of himself.
  • Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1
  • Galatians 1:8-9 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!“
• Paul’s “calling” vs. “conversion” – Fredriksen’s starting point is simple and textual: Paul himself never uses conversion language. He says he was called — and that word matters enormously. Calling is prophetic language, the language of Isaiah and Jeremiah, of figures summoned by God from within Israel to a specific mission. It does not imply a change of religion, a crossing over, or an abandonment of one’s former identity.
• Paul the Liar and Romans 3:7
• Does Lukan Acts know Paul Wrote Letters? A: Acts contains no scenes of Paul composing, sending, or discussing letters. Paul is portrayed as a public speaker, not a writer.
• Was Paul Really a Roman Citizen as said in Acts 22? 1) Paul’s letters contain no claim to Roman citizenship, whereas Acts repeatedly emphasizes it; 2) Paul’s claim to have been beaten with Roman rods in 2 Corinthians 11:25 creates a problem for taking his citizenship literally, since Roman citizens were legally protected against such treatment.

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Difference in Content of Jesus’ Teachings between the Synoptics and John

From James Dunn’s paper in Dropbox titled: Chapter “2 Did Jesus Claim to be the Son of God?” See file Dunn-Evidence-for-Jesus-Gospel-of-John.pdf provided by Tabor 7/23/2026.

• The content of Jesus’ teaching – As to the difference in content between the Synoptics and John, it is almost sufficient to present the statistical facts for the number of times the word ‘kingdom’ appears on Jesus’ lips and the number of times he uses ‘I’ in self-reference.
• Does Jesus’ talk of himself as ‘the Son’ derive from the earliest traditions of Jesus or from the subsequent theological reflection on the significance of Jesus? The initial answer has to be that the self-testimony of Jesus in John’s Gospel belongs in large part at least to the enlarged and developed picture which John paints. The point can again be represented statistically, where the key statistic is the number of times Jesus speaks of God as his Father.

	Matthew	Mark	Luke	John
Kingdom	47	18	37	5
I	17	9	10	118

	Mark	Q	Luke	Matthew	John
‘Father’	3	4	4	31	100
‘the Father’	1	1	2	1	73

• There are no exorcisms in John. Why remains a live question rather than a settled one, with magic-avoidance, cosmic relocation, signs-typology, and source tradition explanations all currently in play and none commanding full consensus.
• Of the Jesus family, only Joseph is named. One explanation is that the author, writing in the time of Emperor Domitian, wanted to protect those in the family who were still alive. Remember, the grandsons of Jude (descendants of David) who were interrogated but released, as they were only poor farmers and not rebels.