From a comment to a post at BSA – The Trinity is, for me, simply claiming for Jesus what every Mystic around the world for thousands of years has always claimed — to be One with God. I also like Alan Watts’ take — that when Jesus said, “No One Comes to the Father except through Me,” he was actually saying, ‘except through the SELF.” Mystics talk like that. Because, ultimately, we are all One with God.
Relevant Scripture
Matthew 4:1 – “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.” [Is it reasonable to think the Spirit led Jesus if they are the same?]
Mark 10:17 – “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. [Jesus saw himself separate from God.]
Mark 12:49 – Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord/YHVH our God, the Lord YHVH is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord YHVH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [Jesus spoke of YHVH as a separate entity]
Luke 10:16 – “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” NRSVUE [Jesus was not sent by someone who is God.]
John 5:19, 30 – “Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise . . . I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.’”
John 7:16-17 – “My teaching is not mine but his who sent me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.”
John 8:28 “. . . I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.”
John 17:3 Prayer to the Father: And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus
Christ whom thou hast sent. [Even in John there is one “true God” who sent a separate entity Jesus.]
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” [Jesus does not see himself as God.]
1 Corinthians 8:5 – For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth — as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. [Even Paul says there is “one God, the Father” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ”. He saw them as separate entities.]
Revelation 11:15 – “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our LORD [YHVH] and of his Christ, and he
shall reign forever and ever.” [YHVH and his Christ are clearly separate entities in the NT book of Revelation.]
JOHN 20:28 – “Jesus told her, ‘… Go to my brothers and sister and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: ‘I have seen the Lord!’ And she told them that [Jesus] had said these things to her” (cf. the Samaritan woman in John 4).
The Johannine Comma from Wikipedia
The Johannine Comma (Latin: Comma Johanneum) is an interpolated phrase (comma) in verses John 5:7–8 of the First Epistle of John.[2] The text (with the comma in italics and enclosed by square brackets) in the King James Version of the Bible reads:
KJV – 7For there are three that beare record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.] 8[And there are three that beare witnesse in earth], the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood, and these three agree in one. — King James Version (1611)
NRSV – 7 There are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree. The NRSV includes the footnote: “A few other authorities read (with variations) There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.” Emphasis mine.
The Evolution of the Trinity From Wikipedia
The Arian Controversy (Arius lived 256 – 336 CE)
Extracts – “The fundamental problem in understanding … these controversies … (is that) Arius’s Christology was a mixture of adoptionism and logos theology. His basic notion was that the Son came into being through the will of the Father; the Son, therefore, had a beginning. Although the Son was before all eternity, he was not eternal, and Father and Son were not of the same essence. In Jesus, who suffered pain and wept, the logos became human.“
“While the opposing view According to Athanasius, God had to become human so that humans could become divine. Thus, at the heart of Athanasius’s Christology was a religious rather than a speculative concern. That led him to conclude that the divine nature in Jesus was identical to that of the Father and that Father and Son have the same substance.”
From Wikipedia – The Nicene Crede and its evolution in 325 CE.
Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE.
The Edict of Thessalonica (also known as Cunctos populos), issued on 27 February AD 380 by Theodosius I, made Nicene Christianity[note 1] the state church of the Roman Empire.[2][3][4] It condemned other Christian creeds such as Arianism as heresies of “foolish madmen,” and authorized their punishment.[5]
This edict, addressed to the inhabitants of Constantinople whom Theodosius wished to pacify in order to make the city his imperial residence, constitutes the first known secular law which includes in its preamble a clear definition of what a Christian Roman ruler considers as religious orthodoxy, opening the way of repression against dissidents qualified as “heretics”. The Edict of Thessalonica was subsequently incorporated into Book XVI of the Theodosian Code and was the milestone of the official Christianization of the Roman Empire.
The Emperor’s EDICT TO THE PEOPLE OF CONSTANTINOPLE GIVEN IN THESSALONICA ON THE THIRD DAY FROM THE CALENDS OF MARCH, DURING THE FIFTH CONSULATE OF GRATIAN AUGUSTUS AND FIRST OF THEODOSIUS AUGUSTUS. On 27 February 380.[4]
EMPERORS GRATIAN, VALENTINIAN AND THEODOSIUS AUGUSTI. EDICT TO THE PEOPLE OF CONSTANTINOPLE.
It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our Clemency and Moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We order the followers of this law to embrace the name of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.
Background
In 313 the emperor Constantine I, together with his eastern counterpart Licinius, issued the Edict of Milan, which granted religious toleration and freedom for persecuted Christians. By 325 Arianism, a school of christology which contended that Christ did not possess the divine essence of the Father but was rather a primordial creation and an entity subordinate to God, had become sufficiently widespread and controversial in Early Christianity that Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to end the controversy by establishing an empire-wide, i.e., “ecumenical” orthodoxy. The council produced the original text of the Nicene Creed, which rejected the Arian confession and upheld that Christ is “true God” and “of one essence with the Father.”[6]
However, the strife within the Church did not end with Nicaea, and the Nicene credal formulation remained contentious even among anti-Arian churchmen. Constantine, while urging tolerance, began to think that he had come down on the wrong side, and that the Nicenes—with their fervid, reciprocal persecution of Arians—were actually perpetuating strife within the Church. Constantine was not baptized until he was near death (337), choosing a bishop moderately sympathetic to Arius, Eusebius of Nicomedia, to perform the baptism.[6]
A simple view, cited somewhere, is that the Nicene Crede (325 CE) deified Jesus and the Edict of Thessalonica (380 CE) deified the Holy Spirit.
Extracts from Four Posts and Links to Others by Bart Ehrman
Is the Trinity in the Bible?
Extract – The Trinity is much more than just having these three beings named at once. It’s a distinct way of understanding the three in themselves and in relation to one another. The doctrine states that the Godhead is made up of three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These are not all the same person. They are three people. Moreover, each of these three persons is fully God. In fact, they are all equal to each other (no one is “superior” to the others) and they are made up of the “same substance.” And together, the three of them are the one God. That’s the doctrine. These three are one.
How the Trinity Got Into the New Testament – About the addition of 1 John 5:7–8.
How the Trinity Got Into the New Testament: Part 2 by Bart Ehrman
I continue now with the story of how the doctrine of the Trinity as stated in 1 John 5:7 (the only passage in the entire Bible that states that there are three divine figures and “these three are one”) was actually not originally part of 1 John – or the Bible at all. It was a later addition. But how did it come into the King James Bible then? Read on!
Below is a question and Bart’s answer in the above-linked Part 2.
Eaglesjack January 9, 2021, at 9:45 am – … One verse that some site for Trinity is also the odd closing of Matthew: “…go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Once again, it seems oddly inserted and out of place. ….
BD Ehrman January 10, 2021 at 5:09 pm. — My view is that this is not a reference to the Trinity per se. The doctrine of the Trinity is not simply the names of the three beings, but an understanding of how they relate to one another: they are three literally distinct persons of the Godhead, all of the same substance, and the three are one. Matthew gives no hint that this is what he has in mind… Later writers for example referred to the Father, the son, the holy spirit, and the angels — but that doesn’t mean they thought they were all equal or one; so the mention of the three in Matthew is striking, but not necessarily an indication that he held to the idea of a trinity per see.
Below is from Bart’s three talks at Coral Gables Congregational Church in Coral Gables, Florida, on his book How Jesus Became God. Go here to see video 1.
Trinity – He presented the evolution of the concept of the Trinity.
- The Modalist View
- Different relationships of one entity. e.g. Bart is the son of his father; and the father of his son; and the brother of his brother. All at the same time. That is the Modalist View. In the second century, the Bishops of Rome held that view as did many Christians.
- Tertullian in Carthage, North Africa, opposed the Modalist view. He was the first to use the phrase Trinity to explain the Father-Son-Spirit separate but one god. Three of Tertullian’s arguments against the Modalist view, per Bart, were:
- Said impossible to “have and to be at the same time”.
- When Jesus was baptized and God said today I have begotten you. He could not have begotten himself.
- When Jesus is praying he is not talking to himself.
- The Arian View
- That Jesus was the son of God created by God before anything else was created. There was a time when Jesus did not exist.
- But, through Jesus, all that was created was created as is stated in the Gospel of John.
- Jesus is subordinate to God the Almighty. Both cannot be Almighty. [The Council of Nicea declared that a heretical belief.]
- Bishop Alexander of Alexandria, Arius’ Bishop opposed the view and declared that Jesus had always existed and was fully equal to God the Father; there was never a time that Jesus did not exist.
- That led to the Council of Nicea – the first of 7 ecumenical councils. The decision was that Christ was not a subordinate being that came into existence and he is fully equal to God.
- A popular argument for that view is that if something is perfect and it changes, then it changes to be better or worse. If it changes for the better then that means it was not perfect. If it changes for the worse then it is no longer perfect. If you say God created the son then he became the father and that is a change.
Extracts from Can you be a Christian and Not Believe in the Trinity? by Ray Hermann, D.Min., The Outlaw Bible Student.
“The evidence indicates that God Almighty is the Father. The Son of God is Jesus Christ, begotten by the Father. The Holy Spirit is not a person or entity, but is God’s great power – his invisible, active, penetrating, and vital force. The Trinity is definitely not biblical truth and is completely a man-made concept.”
“The Trinitarian doctrine is not rational; it just doesn’t make any sense. One would think that if the Trinity is correct, the Bible would present clear evidence in scripture and explain it throughly. There is no record of the Trinity doctrine ever being taught and, for being such an important part of Christian doctrine, it is striking that the word Trinity does not even appear in the Bible. Despite the fact that John 10:30 suggests equality between God and Jesus, and although there are a few “other New Testament texts where God, Jesus, and the Spirit are referred to in the same passage (e.g., Jude 20-21), it is important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear.”“
Extracts from John 1:1 – Does this Bible verse prove Jesus is God? 7 October 2018 – by Ray Hermann, D.Min.
There are a few times in the Gospels that Jesus attests to the fact that he was not God. In the book of John, at the Last Supper when praying for his disciples, he said “. . . that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3.) Writer Kermit Zarley stated that this verse indicates “Jesus tells the Father that he [the Father] is ‘the only true God’ and then distinguishes himself from that one God. Both of these points clearly indicate that Jesus himself cannot also be God.”19
Zarley goes on to say that two other passages “which irrefutable establish that only the Father is God, and distinguish Jesus from God are in Paul’s letters.” In writing to the church at Corinth, Paul states “. . . for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1 Corinthians 8:6, emphasis added.) In his letter to the Ephesians, “Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as ‘one Lord’ and distinguishes him from the ‘one God,’ whom he unequivocally identifies as ‘the Father.’”20 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6.)
There are many verses that indicate Jesus is not God Almighty that can be found in most any Bible version. Here are a few, also from the book of John:
“Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise . . . I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.’” (John 5:19, 30.)
“My teaching is not mine but his who sent me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.” (John 7:16-17.)
“. . . I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.” (John 8:28.)
“Now my soul is troubled. And what should I say—‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.’ Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.’” (John 12:27-28.)
9 Faith Groups That Reject the Trinity
Ross Nichol’s statements in his video Following Jesus Out of Christianity.
Now, who is the God of Deuteronomy 6:4? In Hebrew, Shema Yisrael, we say Adonai, but in Hebrew, it’s the name of God, the four-letter name of God. In some translations, it’s Yahweh or Jehovah or Yehovah, various other versions of the name. But the point is that this is a name. It’s not just Lord. Now, the confusion comes in because in the Hebrew, the very name of the four-letter name of God, Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh, appears almost 7,000 times. But in English translations, it’s represented by capital L-O-R-D. So, what happens is you see verses where it says Lord, particularly in the New Testament, and people say, well, Jesus is Lord, therefore, Jesus is God. But that equation doesn’t work because there is a distinction to be made by capital L-O-R-D in the English, which means God, Jehovah, and Lord, which means Lord or Master.
If you look that up in the Hebrew, you’re going to see that that is the divine name that God said to my Master, is a better way to translate it. But, the confusion came in. But I would say that to equate Jesus with God and make him part of a trinity, which, by the way, is not a biblical word, is a violation of the central tenet of biblical faith and goes contrary to the religion of Jesus and the teaching of Jesus. And yet the deity of Jesus, as it’s often called, has become a test for orthodoxy and one who does not accept that Jesus, in some way, form, or fashion, is God. This belief, if you don’t embrace that, you’re considered a heretic. But I’d rather stand with Jesus. I maintain that Jesus had a God. The New Testament talks about this God. It’s called the God and Father of Jesus. Now, who is the God and Father of Jesus? That’s my God. I want to have the same God that Jesus had.
From my transcript in DropBox of Dan McClellan’s YouTube presentation Responding to the claim the Trinity is “unavoidably biblical”
My Preface: John 10:30 is often used to show Jesus claimed to be God as he and God are “one”. Dan’s counter is to show that the author of John also has Jesus referring to being one with God in chapter 17 and there Jesus is praying that his disciples will also be one with God. Chapter 17 is known as the Intercessory Prayer.
[Trinitarian] – Jesus in John 10:30 says that I and the Father are one, and that is true, but they are not the same person. They are one being. They are the same being.
John 10:30 — The Father and I are one.” (NRSV)
[Dan McClellan]
This is another problematic interpretive decision because in John 17, in the Intercessory Prayer, we have Jesus three times praying to God that his followers might become one with him just as Jesus is one with the Father. So, if you have decided to interpret Jesus’ oneness with the Father as sharing the exact same substance, being the same entity, the same being, then your soteriology [theology dealing with salvation] must include that Jesus’ followers will become one with Jesus in the sense that they are co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial with the very being of Jesus and, therefore, also the very being of the Father.
So, this is nonsensical. This is one of those examples of taking the passage that agrees with you and centering it and giving it priority and then ignoring or reinterpreting the passages that disagree with you.
And I have seen people in the past when they are confronted with the fact the same author is using this oneness in ways that don’t comport with the Trinity say, well obviously in the intercessory prayer they mean a different kind of oneness, not the kind of oneness they mean in John 10. It’s so obvious. And the reality is your using that interpretive lens of the Trinity and being forced to reinterpret something that very clearly is intended to mean the exact same thing.
From the NRSV
John 17:11 — And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
John 17:20-23 — “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Jesus Baptism is cited in all Gospels as where the spirit came upon him. If he was God how does one explain that?
Here are the Gospel passages that explicitly describe Jesus receiving the Spirit at His baptism. Each citation is given with the wording that shows the Spirit descending on Him:
Mark 1:10 (NRSV)
“And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove on him.”
Matthew 3:16 (NRSV)
“And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.”
Luke 3:21-22 (NRSV)
“Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.’”
John 1:32-33 (NRSV)
(John the Baptist’s testimony) “And John testified, ‘I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, “He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.” ’”
These four passages—Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:21-22, and John 1:32-33—are the Gospel texts that specifically state that Jesus received or was anointed with the Holy Spirit at His baptism.
